We’re thrilled to be joined by Jack McCullough, President of the CFO Leadership Council, for this episode of Controllers Classified. The episode takes a deep dive into how accounting and finance professionals can think about growth and development given the evolving role of the CFO and the rise of the CAO role.
We’re thrilled to be joined by Jack McCullough, President of the CFO Leadership Council, for this episode of Controllers Classified. The discussion begins with a recap of Jack’s inspiring journey from being a rookie CFO in need of peer support to creating a thriving network & community of 2000+ CFOs across 33 chapters in North America.
The episode takes a deep dive into how accounting and finance professionals can think about growth and development. It starts first with a look at the evolving role of CFOs, and the rise of the CAO role to help with the more technical parts of accounting as the CFO takes on more operational responsibilities. Jack and Erik then discuss the challenges that accounting and finance leaders face today and what that means for the skill sets required to be successful in the role. Jack in particular highlights how more than ever accounting and finance professionals need to develop skills related to leadership, innovation, finance, and technology as they tackle challenges around keeping pace with technological evolution and retaining a high performing workforce.
The episode then pivots to a discussion on the importance of mentorship, sponsorship, and allyship, and how all play a role in creating a diverse and inclusive pipeline of accountants and finance professionals. Jack notes that one of the most impactful relationships he has in the workplace is a reverse mentorship where he learns from a finance professional of a younger generation.
To cap the episode off, Jack shares one of his favorite stories from his audit days & some of the more amusing expense reports that he has seen in his time. Whether you're a seasoned finance professional or just starting out, this episode is packed with valuable insights and engaging stories that can inspire how you choose to chart your path to growth.
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0:00:01.8 Announcer: Welcome to Controllers Classified, the podcast where we take a deep dive into the dynamic world of controllers, accountants, and finance leaders, and hear how their ever evolving roles are redefining accounting and the future of business. And now here's your host, Eric Zhou.
0:00:23.6 Erik Zhou: Welcome to Controllers Classified. I'm your host Erik Zhou, Chief Accounting Officer at Brex. I am honored to introduce today's guest, Jack McCullough, Founder and CEO of the CFO Leadership Council. Jack is a well-known thought leader, author, and speaker in the world of financial and strategic leadership, and I'm super excited to be talking to him about the next generation of finance leaders and really what it takes to step up in that field. What are the tools, the expertise, the mindsets that we all need to thrive? This is particularly near and dear to my heart because what we do at Brex is help accounting and finance professionals be the best efficient and most strategic versions of themselves. Jack, welcome to the show.
0:01:09.9 Jack McCullough: Well, thanks. And I've been looking forward to it. So I'm really thrilled that you asked me. And I just have to say, I want you to introduce me every time I speak at an event or even on another person's podcast. That was the best introduction I've ever received.
0:01:22.2 Erik Zhou: I'm for hire. I would love to be at all of your events introducing you, Jack.
0:01:26.3 Jack McCullough: Well, we will indeed see you in October, right?
0:01:28.7 Erik Zhou: Yes. I'm presenting for a couple of your sessions. Thank you very much for the honor of being there.
0:01:34.1 Jack McCullough: Great. No, we're looking forward to it. So.
0:01:42.1 Erik Zhou: Alright. Maybe just a kickstart, you had a long career in accounting. You were an auditor just like myself. I love that. You got into finance controllership, you became a CFO and then you started this council, the CFO Leadership Council. Where did that idea come up? What inspired you to do that?
0:02:01.9 Jack McCullough: Sure. And I actually started at a point in my life I was a CFO and it was one of those things, it was... CFO's a wonderful job, but when you're a rookie, it can be a very intimidating job. It's not an easy job at all. And there were no peers within your company as a CFO. You can't really go to your boss and say, I don't understand this, can you help me? It's not really cool. So I really wanted to start a network of my peers. So and the companies I was working with were venture-backed startups, and I decided I'm just gonna maybe get 20 or 25 venture-backed CFOs in the Boston area. We're not exactly Silicon Valley, but there were quite a few of them. And I figured 2025 would meet four times a year, have some fun and learn from each other. And the first meeting we ended up having 60. So it was pretty clear that I touched a nerve quite by accident. But I had no vision that this would ever be a business plan or extend beyond a couple of dozen CFOs in the Boston area. But here we are, 19 years later and we have 2,600 members and 33 chapters across North America.
0:03:05.9 Erik Zhou: Congratulations on all the success and growth. That's amazing.
0:03:09.1 Jack McCullough: Yeah. And yeah, I wish I could take credit for it. It was really just dumb luck.
0:03:13.3 Erik Zhou: Tell me more about, what do you mean by dumb luck? Like why... Like, 'cause someone else could have done it and would've succeeded or?
0:03:18.8 Jack McCullough: Well, 'cause I very often said no to every opportunity that presented itself. Like we were in Boston, as I mentioned, and one of our members moved to New York and a couple months later she called me back and asked if I'd launch a chapter in New York. And I said, no. And then she called me back again and I said, no, again, it's just, this isn't gonna work outside of Boston. I don't want to. But she was persistent. And my colleague at the time, Becky BlackLer, she was a mother of a three month old, probably older by that point, but when I hired her, she was a mom of a three month old. And at that point, her husband happened to lose her job and she overheard the conversation and she asked if she could launch the New York chapter, and I just, sure, go for it. And whatever money you bring in is yours. Do it under the banner and she ended up liking it. And she kind of grew the company out in the first couple of years.
0:04:05.1 Erik Zhou: So what was the strategy of growing the council or the, basically the membership group over time? Did you go location by location? Was it someone reaching out to you? Hey, let's start a chapter where I'm at? Or like what was your process for expansion in those first five or 10 years?
0:04:22.8 Jack McCullough: It's a great question, Eric. And the story that I shared about New York that repeated itself in Philadelphia, it was another member who moved to that chapter. And so again, it was just kind of, we weren't looking to go to Philadelphia. It was just kind of luck that someone asked us to. And that chapter just celebrated its 10th year anniversary, I believe. And then the first time we did it on purpose was Atlanta and Washington. So we actually launched two, and then we had five chapters along the east coast, and then we put the pedal to the metal a little bit, although I was still working at KPMG at the time, which is a great place to work. And as you might imagine business development people at big accounting firms it's a good way to make a living too financially.
0:05:04.3 Jack McCullough: And I was a little unsure. It's like I like working at KPMG, the money's great. It's a great culture versus the option to do something I loved that may or may not pay the bills. And my wife was fully supportive and my dad said, you'll just regret it so either just do it and stop worrying about it. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But what gave me the impetus is my boss, who is a partner great guy, Ed Sullivan, he said, don't... I resigned to him and he said, gimme 48 hours before you share this. So he came back and says, here's what we can do. I'm gonna... If you wanna work for us halftime, we're gonna give you half salary, but full benefits.
0:05:45.4 Jack McCullough: That way you don't have to go and get your own insurance and do this for a year under those circumstances. That way you'll have good cash flow, we'll fully support the effort. If a year comes and you still don't wanna... And you don't want to do it, we'll just hire you back full time. And that enabled me to do it. How many people are that good to you in your career, right? So it was a great firm. It made me really not wanna leave because they were so good to me, but I just had to pursue my passion.
0:06:13.3 Erik Zhou: Yeah, that's really nice of KPMG. I can't help but think if I was in KPMG shoes and I had a rockstar business development person with a finance background making all these CFL connections across the country that... Somehow that would... Like, that benefits my firm.
0:06:32.4 Jack McCullough: Yes. So.
0:06:33.1 Erik Zhou: Right. Like, 'cause you're making sure that...
0:06:34.8 Jack McCullough: Yeah. But also, he and I were the same age. He was my boss, but we became friends and I'm sure he was looking out for me. But yes, I did bring a lot of business into the firm as well. So.
0:06:44.9 Erik Zhou: Was the formula the same when you started off in Boston, you got 20 to 60 people, hanging out four times a year, the topics, discussions, etcetera, opening up the New York chapter and finding the folks there. What do you think is the formula as you were going region to region and getting these folks into the network?
0:07:05.5 Jack McCullough: Yeah, it was, and eventually, like with Becky, when she took on more role, it became like eight meetings a year, even 10 meetings a year sometime. But that became a little bit much. But yeah, we basically, when we went to New York, we replicated the same model which was meetings at a good downtown location supplemented by the occasional social at a fund venue. We did... We had what we now call an advisory board, which was comprised of six to 12 CFOs, depending upon the city. And then sponsors would get a rep on the advisory board and they'd plan the academic agenda for the year. They'd pick the topics, recruit the speakers, and things like that. And early years, we just kind of repeated that over and over again. And it was a pretty good model.
0:07:49.8 Jack McCullough: But we also, we didn't wanna be a bunch of fiefdoms either. So we actually have a... It's a Google Mail list, simple as that. But we just, we wanted the members in other chapters to have a way to pick each other's brains and share knowledge and expertise with it. And that really made it a community rather than just a bunch of people who happen to belong to the same organization. 'cause People were interacting with, one of the great things is, I remember in the early days we had a young CFO. He was in life sciences. He wanted a mentor who was a veteran life sciences person, and his mentor ended up being a CFO who is located in San Diego, which also has a big life science company. So they never met in person that I know of, but they played a really important role in each other's careers.
0:08:36.6 Erik Zhou: That's awesome. In thinking through the CFO Leadership Institute, I think membership is not just CFOs, it's probably all types of finance professionals. So based on what you're seeing in the membership and what the trends are today, tell me about how you think the role of the CFO or the elevated finance professional has evolved over the last 10 years.
0:09:06.9 Jack McCullough: Sure. And I'll go back a little bit further if you don't mind, Eric.
0:09:10.0 Erik Zhou: Sure. Yeah.
0:09:10.6 Jack McCullough: 'cause I was the last of CFO in 2007, but like back then the CFO usually got the job because he or she was the best accountant in his company or her company. And while, I'm not knocking accounting as a background and rising to a CFO ranks for the controllership. It's not... It's certainly not the only way. It's one of many ways. And it turns out there are now more MBAs, more CFOs hold MBAs than CPAs amongst the Fortune 5,000, according to a study that was done by Spencer Stewart. So, but the role has become from being really a really good finance and accounting person to being a strategic thinker who's also an expert in finance and accounting. My catch line for my podcast is CFOs no longer record history. They make history. And they, yeah, I think it's very true. The days of reporting what happened after it happened are gone. They're actually on the front lines fighting the battles. And early in my career, and obviously it starts well before yours, but I started out as an auditor and people... I was compared, I was compared to people in battles. They with the bayonets, they don't do any actual fighting. They take their bayonets and stab the bodies on the ground to make sure they're really dead. How the heck do you... Who wants to go through that perception in their career? Right? So but now people realize.
0:10:39.5 Erik Zhou: That's what going through an audit is like sometimes. I mean I was an auditor for 11 years. Now I get audited at Brex, and no offense to our auditors at Brex, by the way, who might be listening on this podcast. But yeah, sometimes it does feel like I got a dead body and you are stabbing that dead body to make sure that it's really dead.
0:10:57.2 Jack McCullough: Yeah. And the other one, like consultants, they borrow your watch to tell you what time it is. Sorry, to my consultant friends, which are Legion. So.
0:11:06.7 Erik Zhou: No they love us. I think they love us 'cause we pay the bills. Yeah.
0:11:09.3 Jack McCullough: Indeed they do. So.
0:11:11.0 Erik Zhou: Yeah. That resonates with me. So just to give you some background, Jack and maybe also the audience. I'm the Chief Accounting Officer at Brex. I've been at Brex for five and a half years. Ran controllership, tax, internal controls, financial reporting, etcetera. It's been my career here for a long time. In Q1 this year I started working on the finance team and doing some corporate FP&A, and now I oversee all of corporate FP&A at the company. And it's a change.
0:11:39.8 Jack McCullough: Yeah.
0:11:40.0 Erik Zhou: It's a change. There's... I saw a post from the CFO Leadership Council recently, and it was about the art of storytelling and how important that is for the finance profession and the CFO. Like what would you tell someone that wanted to make that transition. How to start doing it if they were in accounting originally, but now they wanna take that next step?
0:12:04.8 Jack McCullough: It's a great question and there's no one answer for it. But we did a meeting, we do occasional group meetings on that. And it's difficult because as a controller, you're largely finance and accounting and you're focused on processes and expense management and whatnot. And it's difficult to let that go as a CFO and work cross-functionally. So as you're getting ready for that, you have an opportunity. If you have a boss who's actually genuinely interested in your career and wants to see you grow and thinks that you do have the potential to become a CFO at one point work with that person to sort of develop the skills. Come to the leadership meetings, so that you're working with a VP of sales and VP of marketing, understand what they're doing. Ask if you can sit in silently at the board of directors meetings, things like that.
0:12:58.6 Jack McCullough: Just get exposed to the issues that the CFO is facing on a day-to-day basis. And there are a lot of CFOs that will definitely do that. One of my closest friends in Boston, she's I'll call her a serial CFO, I think she's probably been a CFO, I'm gonna say six times. But she told me a couple years ago that she had 15 controllers who'd worked for her at some point during the course of her career. And every one of them was a CFO now, except for the one that was working for her at that point in time.
0:13:28.6 Erik Zhou: That's an Amazing Stat.
0:13:29.8 Jack McCullough: It is. I'm gonna bet... Yeah, I'll bet money that the 15th is the CFO now. But she recruits people. She tells them that she's, I don't expect to want you to work for me more than two years. She's like, I want you, I'm looking for controller who wants my job. They may not get my job, but one like it. And I want you to work your ass off, but I'm gonna expose you to everything. So two years, three years, you're gonna be ready for that CFO job and I'm gonna help you get it.
0:13:55.7 Erik Zhou: That's awesome.
0:13:56.5 Jack McCullough: And what a great boss. Who wouldn't wanna work for her. Right?
0:13:58.0 Erik Zhou: Totally. 100%.
0:14:00.3 Jack McCullough: But, so find a boss like that. So.
0:14:01.7 Erik Zhou: I gotta look at it the other side too, which is, given the stat you just shared, like all these CFOs in the Fortune 5,000, they all have MBAs, a lot of CPAs, they kind of do accounting, they go into the controllership position. They may never go get an MBA or have that experience. Do you think that's played like, 'cause over the last 10 to 15 years, there's been this rise of the chief accounting officer role, and that's the role I sit in today. But do you think that's a contributor, like that shift in mindset on what they're looking for in a CFO? But you still need the accounting, you still need the books and records to be done in a technically correct way. And by the way, it can get real technical, right? Like as you know. So like, do you think that's played a role in the rise of that position?
0:14:50.1 Jack McCullough: Yeah, absolutely. And evolutionary if, not so long ago, almost all large companies had a Chief operating officer. But that role is largely gone these days. But the CFO, it's not like the need is gone. But the CFO has taken on a large number of those responsibilities. And it would be difficult to do all of the strategic and operational and cross-functional things that are now expected of CFOs and also master everything they knew about accounting. Accounting is so much more complex than it was even 10 or 15 years ago. And by the way, the consequences for screwing up accounting are relatively severe. Particularly if you're a public company or you aspire to be a public company. So, the best CFOs I know they have somebody that has that expertise for them that they can 100% rely upon and, 'cause then they just can't spend time reading accounting pronouncements that they come out and expecting to master them and understand them.
0:15:55.9 Jack McCullough: So they have a chief accounting officer, different relationship with the auditor. 'cause The auditor's gonna try to do the right thing for you too. But the auditor can only do so much. Right. So you have a CAO or just maybe a controller who's really good at that sort of thing to sort of make sure that the trains run on time and there are no financial reporting mistakes. 'cause we've all seen it Eric, I mean, company has a great story, ready to go public, start the IPO process. Boom. A huge accounting error was discovered. Not fraud, just the CFO wasn't an accounting expert. Gosh, it's too bad you didn't have a chief accounting officer.
0:16:32.1 Erik Zhou: Yeah, no, totally. I think about kind of like my road to my position today and the road of the CFO here at Brex, frankly but also other chief accounting officers and other CFOs that I've known in my network. The paths are becoming quite different.
0:16:50.6 Jack McCullough: Yeah. I mean, and CAO is a great way to make a living. I mean, there's real money in it. It's invaluable contribution to the company. And people who aspire to that and love that sort of thing, what a great way to make a living. But a lot of them do wanna become a CFO and they will need to take on some of the other responsibilities 'cause it's... You can't just be great at accounting and think you're gonna flourish as a CFO in most companies.
0:17:12.9 Erik Zhou: I'm gonna ask a even deeper question on this.
0:17:15.5 Jack McCullough: Ooh.
0:17:16.0 Erik Zhou: Do you think this dynamic and this split between the CFO role sometimes, or, maybe not sometimes maybe it's just very obvious. It's a more glamorous role than being the CFO controller.
0:17:29.6 Jack McCullough: That's fair to say.
0:17:29.9 Erik Zhou: I think that's fair. But because the CFO role does not need necessarily the accounting degree or the accounting chops, do you think that also leads to some of the decrease in accountants in the US today?
0:17:45.3 Jack McCullough: Oh, you mean...
0:17:47.6 Erik Zhou: The ceiling is different now, right? When I got an accounting degree before, fine work at a big four, go become a controller. You can be the CFO someday. In fact, our old CFO, Michael Tanenbaum, his father has that background and he became the CFO of many companies himself. Today if someone comes outta college with an accounting degree, I don't know if they can say the same thing with confidence.
0:18:12.8 Jack McCullough: Yeah. It's hard to say. I mean, from people I've spoken to and college and universities are like all over this 'cause they recognize the importance of the profession, but it's a challenging profession, right? I mean, for one thing, even though slightly more CFOs have MBAs than CPAs, they're both really hard credentials to get right. And like, if you wanna be a data scientist, you can just graduate from undergrad, start working at it and make a good living doing what they perceive to be more interesting work. That's debatable. But nevertheless it's one of the fields people go into. It's like, look I can make more money as a data scientist.
0:19:00.4 Jack McCullough: That's, I don't wanna harp on that, but I've heard that is where people who would've studied accounting now just go into data for a living. It's more fun. It's more challenging, but not in a stressful type of challenging way. And I don't have to get 40 hours of educational credit for the next 40 years to remain relevant. And it's appealing. But, so, I think it's incumbent really upon people who have succeeded in the profession, to really talk about why this is such a great place to make a living. In my case, I was a mediocre student and not much of an accountant. And I was in the profession for 20 something years. I made a damn good living. And I was never unemployed for 20 years.
0:19:47.5 Jack McCullough: I worked consistently every single day. It's just one of those professions, if you're good at it, you'll always have a job, so. And every time there's been a wave that people said accountants have, the past, they've always been wrong. I was told by smart people not to go into accounting. I graduated the rise of PCs. It's like personal computers will replace accountants. Couldn't have given me worse advice. It was the exact opposite. The rise of computing technology created a need for accountants. Economic downturns, we need good accounting people with controls and processes in place, economic upturns, you can't get enough high quality CFOs. So, it just seems like one of these professions that no matter what happens, it's a great way to make a living.
0:20:30.0 Erik Zhou: 100% and it's also one of those professions that's a living... It's got a living set of rules. Meaning as society progresses and as technology progresses and as business progresses, the rules that you apply for accounting also have to change and keep up. The rules that we had 30 years ago, for example, don't meet the standards that we have today with software and all this other stuff. They always have to have updates. So I think it is, and also an interesting field to be in, if you like that kind of thing on the technical side.
0:21:03.3 Jack McCullough: Yeah. I mean, I did once, it's funny you happen to mention software 'cause my senior year thesis was on FASB 86, which is the capitalization of software development costs. So I bet I still have it somewhere and I bet it's completely wrong by today's standards.
0:21:16.0 Erik Zhou: Just wrapping up this section in terms of how to think about the CFO role and growing into it, what do you think are the top three challenges for CFOs today?
0:21:29.0 Jack McCullough: I always start with T&T, which is talent and technology. Or technology and talent. If you, since you work for a tech company. But it's really, on the technology side, it's really about keeping pace. At one point, technology, it saved money from the finance and accounting perspective maybe, and got you some operational efficiencies. But now a thoughtful digital strategy will get you a long-term sustainable competitive advantage. And that's the name of the game that didn't exist before. The best CFOs are embracing digital strategically, not just to reduce costs. So staying on the cutting edge of technology is critical. And then talent, it's a really interesting workforce today. Every CFO I know talked, that I talked to, they struggle with recruiting people, retaining people, upskilling people. And it's a complex workforce. It's wonderfully challenging. But we have so many generations in the workforce right now, and we are a little bit different.
0:22:28.2 Jack McCullough: I'm a boomer we're slowly leaving the workforce, but there's still a bunch of us in it. I'm probably in it for another six or eight years. And, but Gen Z's emerged and it is, for those who haven't worked a lot with Gen Z, it is an impressive cohort. They are super smart, they're the most well-educated generation in history. They are the most digitally savvy generation in history. Well, until Gen Alpha outdoes them, probably, but to this point, they're the most digitally savvy. They are the most diverse by almost any criteria you could come up with. So, learn what you can about them 'cause they're gonna be running the world pretty soon. Probably, I will probably retire by the time that happens. But as a boomer, we had a good long run. Gen Z is gonna have its good long run as well.
0:23:17.9 Erik Zhou: Yeah. I mean, that resonates with me. Like you talk about T&T. My acronym, and it is borrowed from another friend of mine. It's, PPS people, process and systems.
0:23:26.0 Jack McCullough: Okay. Just as good.
0:23:29.9 Erik Zhou: Just, you gotta have the people to run the process and the systems to enhance it all. So, that makes sense to me. What about like, thinking through the top three skills of CFOs that you would wanna have now, going forward?
0:23:47.2 Jack McCullough: How about I give you four?
0:23:49.4 Erik Zhou: I love it.
0:23:50.2 Jack McCullough: 'cause it's easy.
0:23:51.2 Erik Zhou: I love...
0:23:51.4 Jack McCullough: It's easy...
0:23:52.1 Erik Zhou: Just, I'm all for it. Yeah.
0:23:54.3 Jack McCullough: Well, I'm actually working on a paper on the topic right now. I haven't issued it, but it's actually, it turns out it's easy to remember 'cause it's LIFT. So, leadership; the ability to inspire trust, inspire confidence, direct companies. Innovation, I was gonna say problem solving, but then it wouldn't spell LIFT. So it's innovation, but the ability to solve problems for your company, not just report what happened after the fact, but solve the problem. Maybe even prevent a problem from happening in the first place. And then at the risk of being really obvious, but finance, it's CFO that the F does stand for finance. And being a financial guru, which isn't the same as being an accounting guru, but understanding finance is always gonna be critical to the role. And then technology. Mastering technology, again, not just how... It doesn't mean you have to be sitting down writing code or anything like that, but understanding how technology plays in the marketplace, how it can give your organization a competitive advantage and being on the forefront.
0:24:57.9 Jack McCullough: And there are a lot of companies that their entire business models were saved because of a thoughtful digital strategy. Some of them were luck, but a well known example, Disney, right? Turn the clocks back to COVID. They were making them money at that point by theme parks and movies.
0:25:16.0 Erik Zhou: That's right.
0:25:16.5 Jack McCullough: Those businesses are illegal for a few months. So, gosh, what are they gonna do? Well, fortunately, they had just launched Disney Plus, I believe is the name of this studio.
0:25:26.0 Erik Zhou: That's right.
0:25:26.8 Jack McCullough: And they were just... They were getting like millions of subscribers every single day. They were so well positioned and no one said, let's do this in case there's a global pandemic. But they recognized the revenue potential there, and thank God they did 'cause you know, before that they were a hugely profitable, well-respected company. What would've happened to them without Disney Plus? Right? I mean, I don't think there's anything that could make us lose Disney, but man, it would've been hard times when you can only sell so many Mickey Mouse stalls, right? So.
0:26:01.6 Erik Zhou: I wanna add one more thing. I like the acronym LIFT. On the finance one, I do think, like, and this is from my experience, not just at Brex, but auditing many, many different companies. Being the realist when you're in finance, because as much as storytelling has become a key part of the role, the accounting aspect and showing the truth of what's happened, and whether or not that's actually gonna make sense with your projections going forward and your story to back up those projections, they'll have to hang together. You know what I mean? I think there's a little bit of like, yes, there's a storytelling, but you also have to make sure is rooted in reality, if that makes any sense.
0:26:46.3 Jack McCullough: Yo. Yeah, absolutely. And storytelling, I tell people about storytelling. We happen to live in the age of the best storyteller in history from a business perspective, Warren Buffet. I mean, just watch how he communicates. He's not fancy at all. But man does he inspires trust. Right? And that's how CFOs should try to communicate, like Warren Buffet. Read his annual report, plain language, you're as I say, CFOs and Wall Street analysts can read the report and listen to Mr. Buffet and they're gonna get a lot out of it. But you know what, Grandma, who managing her life savings, and maybe she only went to high school, she can understand every word he says as well. That's a rare skill that you can appeal and inspire trust and confidence in both audiences. And he does it. So.
0:27:30.6 Erik Zhou: The thing about Warren that, now that you mention his name, I've read, like I've seen some of his interviews and some of his writings, he loves reading 10-Ks. [laughter]
0:27:41.2 Jack McCullough: Yes. He does, so.
0:27:42.8 Erik Zhou: He speaks, he says, yes, there is all these kinds of investor reports that a company will release. Yes, you'll get equity research reports from folks covering those companies. But the most credible source of information that he finds when he's analyzing the company is in that 10-K.
0:28:01.3 Jack McCullough: Yeah. So interesting.
0:28:01.7 Erik Zhou: And I'd like to think it's because there's the GAAP numbers there, the US GAAP numbers and then the MD&A that you can reconcile to, if that makes any... Like, I think you gotta have both, to really know value investing, frankly, at least for his style.
0:28:16.3 Jack McCullough: Yeah. I mean, I've been not critical, but an issue with the accounting profession is it's become so complex that sometimes non-accountants can't really understand things. It's like, gee, if you're not a CFO or a partner in an audit firm or professor of accounting in a college what does this mean to you? And it's become almost too arcane. But we can't survive without a rules-based system so that we're all following the same rules and reporting by the same standards. So, there's absolutely a place for it. And as you pointed out, Warren sort of proves that, if he's reading it, maybe we all can. Right? So.
0:28:53.8 Erik Zhou: Going back to the topic, we talked about how there is a growing decline in accountants in the US, the fact that accounting rules are getting more complex. The job is getting tougher for the regulatory scrutiny. I hope that the folks at the FASB, the ICPA folks, they kinda see that, and I know they are, they're thinking about it because like, the world needs accounts at the end of the day, whether times are good, whether times are bad, you need to get your debits on the left and credits on the right. So, I really hope that there's some more progress there over the next few years.
0:29:29.1 Jack McCullough: Yeah. There sure will be.
0:29:30.0 Erik Zhou: Second part of the show here. Wanted to ask you about this other theme that I think you're really passionate about, but this idea of equity and inclusion in the profession, right? And so you've been an outspoken champion of diversity, equity, inclusion in our field. And creating access to the field in historically excluded groups. So like... I guess I gotta just go back to the source. Why do you think that matters?
0:30:02.2 Jack McCullough: Well there's a lot of reasons, and I would say championing diversity, equity, and inclusion in general and is a moral imperative, right? I mean, do you really wanna be part of a society where there's not a level playing field that all of us don't have the opportunity to reach their potential? You could ask that to a million people, that there might be people who think yes, but no one is going to say yes. So it's a moral imperative, but it's also a business necessity. When you bring together individuals from different backgrounds with different perspectives and experience, it just gets more energy in the room. It creates innovation. Innovation's, what drives the economy, at least in the United States. It leads to better, more rounded business decisions. And it also, it just helps you to understand your customer better as well, right.?
0:30:53.1 Jack McCullough: I'm a 60-year-old male, from the Boston area of Irish ancestry. And that's kind of, you know, my world perspective is colored by that. It's not a judgment, but that's the reality. So if I'm working for consumer products, good what would I possibly know that would appeal to women of color from foreign countries who grew up in whatever. It's absolutely nothing. I have no illusions that I can figure that sort of thing out. So it simply leads diverse perspectives who are empowered. It's not just having them in the room. It's giving them the ability to talk. It will simply lead to better decision makings and better outcomes. And then there's kind of the, I'm not nice about it. The practical thing is, young people and organizations do wanna hire young professionals. They're not gonna come to work for a company that doesn't have a committed DEI strategy. People don't wanna invest in companies like that. And your customers don't wanna buy from you if you're not like that. So it's really just good business and it's a good thing to do as a human being.
0:32:00.3 Erik Zhou: I really... That resonates with me in terms of like, if you were of a certain background, it doesn't have to be you, it could be me, it could, I'm a Chinese person, Chinese ancestry. I was colored by that. If I were working at some kind of consumer goods company. Same question.
0:32:16.7 Jack McCullough: Yeah.
0:32:16.8 Erik Zhou: What would I know about selling products to a woman of color or a white woman or you frankly, given my background, right? And I think, that really resonates. So, having all those diverse perspectives in the room actually expands your serviceable market to some extent, or ability to serve all your customers well. And that's just great business sense. What do you think are like one or two things that we all can do to help that along to increase your pipeline or diversity of pipeline, into the profession?
0:32:50.0 Jack McCullough: Sure. I'm gonna have to charge you more for this appearance 'cause I'm gonna give you three if that's okay.
0:32:54.7 Erik Zhou: Yeah.
0:32:55.3 Jack McCullough: It's, I actually created this, I gave a presentation to do...
0:32:58.3 Erik Zhou: I'm getting a great customer service experience, frankly, like that's how I'm feeling.
0:33:02.7 Jack McCullough: So there you go. But I came up with the concept, the three ships. So the first one is mentorship. Find a young person that you recognize potential in, that maybe is from a historically disadvantage, or even just if it's underrepresented group and serve as a mentor to him or her. By the way the most powerful relationship I have is a reverse mentorship. I have a Gen Z mentor, and she is a woman of color, and I mentor her. And I'm sort of trying to share with her, impart my wisdom from four decades of being in the workforce. And I'm learning a lot about her generation along the way as well. I'd say I probably learned more from her than she from me. Perhaps she would say the other way around, but...
0:33:50.0 Erik Zhou: I bet if folks, more folks did stuff like that and mentored folks, but also took in the reverse mentorship, they would help solve some of that talent problem in the T&T that you talk about.
0:34:06.1 Jack McCullough: Absolutely. So.
0:34:07.0 Erik Zhou: 100% that, yeah.
0:34:07.5 Jack McCullough: So the second ship is sponsorship. And this works, it doesn't have to be the person you're mentoring, but maybe it can, if that person works in the same company as you. Is just commit yourself to finding a young person with the potential to be a leader in your company and just making sure that they get the opportunities. You know what you wanna do that, if you've spoken to Eric, he's a young genius. I know he is only 24, but this guy's smart, he understands the business, his growth potential is unlimited. Let's get him involved. So be a sponsor to the young people from diverse backgrounds in your organization. And then allyship is the third one. And that is simply creating the culture to make sure that these thrive. It's not aimed at one person as the first two are, but make sure, make the commitment to doing a diverse, fair environment where everybody can reach his or her potential. Why not do that? Right? And the other thing you can do, amplify voices and build trust with people.
0:35:10.2 Erik Zhou: What are the challenges on the last one. Must be... That sounds like the most challenging, the first two, you kind of do that on your own, right? I can pick someone to help mentor and then get the reverse mentorship. I can certainly sponsor someone in the company, for promotion, I basically put my name and like, I helped them along the way over a period of time. But that last piece can be really difficult, I think.
0:35:35.0 Jack McCullough: Yeah. It's tough because it's one of those things, I've done it really without consciously thinking about it at the CFO Leadership Council. And you've been to some of our events and while I don't know how many people of color there are, it's a amount I'm proud of. And we did that partly, we just kind of did it partly we're nice people and [laughter] the whole community's nice. So people feel very welcome when they come to some of our meetings. But the other thing is like, if you noticed our keynote speakers, they do come from diverse backgrounds at the conference we've got coming up in Dallas in a few weeks. We have four CFOs who are keynotes, three of them are women, and the fourth one is a Latino.
0:36:24.8 Jack McCullough: But by the way, they're all extraordinary talents. I will put those keynotes. I did not pick them for diversity. I would not have picked four white guys. You know, then if for some reason I had three, I would've not added a fourth. But they're great. You know, the, 09 Solutions, is one of the fastest growing companies in, in fact, I believe it is the fastest growing company in Texas. Phenomenal CFO. We've got Ogilvy, we've got Hewlett Packard Enterprises, and we've got WM, which used to be Waste Management. They're all on the Fortune 300. I'm not compromising quality one bit. These are absolutely the best players in the game. And the fact that they bring an element of diversity, that's just an added bonus. They were picked 'cause they're great CFOs and young people will see that.
0:37:10.8 Erik Zhou: I love that. I think the action that you did was show representation matters. That's important. I think and that's not a new phrase, but for me, for me to see folks that are Asian or Chinese or whatever in positions of CFO, CIO, what have you, and senior leadership, I gotta say like, oh, that actually, that means I can also get there. That there isn't this wall, that may exist because of my heritage, etcetera.
0:37:50.4 Jack McCullough: Yeah. It shouldn't be a factor. I have a niece, it's my sister's daughter and her father's from the Dominican Republic, and she's got his last name and to the world, she looks like a Latina. And she's gonna be thought to be one even though she's half. And she said to me, if I can see it, I can be it. And her point was, Hey, you know, if I see great Latinas running businesses, doing whatever it is that they're doing, that's inspiring to me because I know that there's a path there for me to get there. And if there are people there that will help, so much the better. And, you know, she's kind of funny 'cause she was like 16 and she's a robotics genius. So she was actually like, she was mentoring, she was coaching a team of girls younger than her. It was the only all girl robotics team in this contest. And she went on social media and she said, I really love the opportunity to mentor the next generation of engineers. You're 16 [laughter] I worked at Burger King when I was 16. And what do you mean the next generation? You don't think you are part of the next generation?
0:39:12.8 Erik Zhou: I love that.
0:39:13.0 Jack McCullough: Yeah.
0:39:13.6 Erik Zhou: Good for her.
0:39:15.0 Jack McCullough: She's got it kind of figured out better than I do I think so.
0:39:19.3 Erik Zhou: Yeah. All right. So, we're nearing the end of our episode, and as we do with all of our shows, we end with a segment called Finance Leaders Have Fun too. And so I'll leave it up to you, but in this part, we typically ask our guests if you have a fun accounting story, an unusual expense report, something amusing, for our audience from the world of accounting and finance.
0:39:50.6 Jack McCullough: Oh boy. A fun accounting story. So the story would be a real story, right?
0:39:55.4 Erik Zhou: Yeah, yeah. Totally. It's gotta be.
0:39:57.5 Jack McCullough: I may have shared this with you, God, I'm gonna... If he's listening, he's going to kill me. So I won't mention his name, but I started my career as an auditor at a major CPA firm. And, back then there was a procedure, it was a literal cash count and it was a surprise cash count. So what you would do, the audit team would go to a bank branch unannounced and say, we're here to count the money in your bank. And so they'd go in, they'd physically count the money and just make sure that the physical account matched the perpetual records. That may still go on for all I know. I'm not sure. So anyway, so one of my guy I was friendly with in public and still am a little bit to this day, he goes to the bank, counts all the money, writes up the papers. The next day he goes to the office, presents the write up to the audit manager, or maybe the audit partner. I forget, I can picture the guy who's a big scary, intimidating guy. And he said to him like, is this a joke? And he's like, no, no. He's like, come on you, you're pulling my leg. Right? And he finally, it took him a while to convince the manager that he wasn't kidding. And he said, what's wrong? He said this is the wrong bank.
0:41:09.9 Jack McCullough: This isn't even a client of our firm. It's like, how did he get in there? But, you know so if you ever wanna rob a bank, that might be a way just go in and say, give me access to your money.
0:41:21.0 Erik Zhou: That's what you would. Have you seen the meme video of like two guys with a ladder? Two guys with the ladder can get in anywhere.
0:41:29.1 Jack McCullough: I bet. Yeah. Like a ladder or clipboard or something like that. Yeah. But is that a video like guys walking around with a ladder and seeing if they can access buildings and stuff?
0:41:38.3 Erik Zhou: What you're saying is you can add to the list. If you're gonna go do an inventory account, you can also get in anywhere.
0:41:45.2 Jack McCullough: Yeah. You can get into the cash. So, but you wanted a, I worked with some really interesting people over the years. You said you wanted like a funny expense report story?
0:41:56.8 Erik Zhou: Sure, yeah.
0:42:00.1 Jack McCullough: I mean, I could give you three if you really want them.
0:42:00.9 Erik Zhou: Yeah, Nothing, nothing... You know, some expense report stories are pretty not safe for work, let's just say.
0:42:10.5 Jack McCullough: Yeah. I've, I've shared that one with you in prior conversations. We're not gonna go there.
0:42:13.9 Erik Zhou: Yeah.
0:42:14.4 Jack McCullough: But I'll just say what stays in, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas and leave it at that. But yeah, so anyway, I worked, one guy and, he wasn't really, he wasn't a bad guy, but he lied on his expense reports. And our company policy was you didn't need to show a receipt. And this was back when paper receipts were a thing, if your mail was less than 24.99 or less than $25, you didn't need a receipt for it. So this guy had three meals a day, five days a week between $22 and $24.99. And he did not need to submit a receipt for it. And, I knew he was cheating. It's like no one eats in that tight range that often.
0:43:02.7 Jack McCullough: So what we did, unfortunately, we had to, you know, 'cause he was like one of 14 salespeople and they kind of knew he was doing it and they were kind of annoyed, but, so I lowered it. I said, okay, so the range is 14.99, and on a dime, his next expense report $12 to 14.99, 3 meals a day, five days a week. I finally just had to say, no, you just have to have a receipt for everything. And, you know, I just, it was unfair to the other salespeople. It was one of those I knew he was, stealing from the company, but he wasn't. And then, I'm trying to think. I don't wanna go over on these stories of...
0:43:39.8 Erik Zhou: No. There were two other ones that I think you had Right? I remember talking to you before.
0:43:46.0 Jack McCullough: Yeah. There was one guy, and again he claims he didn't know any better, but mileage reimbursement. So you drive your car for business and you know, you get 57 cents a mile or whatever the current rate is. It's probably higher than that now. But he rented a car and he put in the mileage on the rental car 'cause he, I mean, he drove rental. So not only did we reimburse him for the car and the gas, but like we gave him 40 cents a mile. And this guy lived in, he'd rent a car quite a bit sometimes and, he'd just, he'd fly and go to... And rent a car and he'd be driving apparently, like he'd drive just around the perimeter of the city for hours or something like that, but yeah, he'd put in, you know, the rental car and then 60 miles and a few times I didn't really notice it. And then I'm finally like, well, if you've got a rental car, like are you driving 100 miles to go get the rental car? What's going on? He is like, no, I'm entitled to mileage for driving. What?
0:44:50.8 Erik Zhou: He, just didn't get it. He didn't know. Let's assume he didn't know, like, now he's getting educated.
0:44:55.0 Jack McCullough: Yeah. That's really the one guy that certainly did know and again, this was at the dawn of the internet, so we're going back a little bit, but he used to just put in, he lived in Indiana and, before the incident, how did I know? He just, every time he took a trip, he'd put in like a toll for like $22. And it was like sort of, no matter how far away he was, it was a $22 toll. So I asked him, I'm like, you have a highway that no matter how long you're on, it's 22 bucks? That might not have been the right amount, but I distinctly recall it was an absurdly high amount and it was the same amount every time. And then when the internet came, I could look it up and I'm like, that's a 70-cent toll. So I challenged one of the guys says, oh, it was just meant to be a represented number. I didn't really track the actual number. So you put in $22 every single time? I mean How is that not stealing?
0:45:46.7 Erik Zhou: I got a question like, now so much of these processes are automated, even at Brex. We have some automated process to... We kind of quote unquote, not quote we do, but like we verify that this is the right receipt and that it matches the reimbursement and that all that stuff. I sometimes think because it's so automated, maybe things slip by because there isn't a human looking at it. Because that's kind of how you cocked all this stuff, right? It's because you had the street smarts to like think like a salesperson and think about the system and what are the gaps, if that makes any sense.
0:46:27.0 Jack McCullough: Yeah. The tolls, it was a situation, the accounting manager went on got sick at the same time that the controller went on vacation. So I did a bunch of expense reports, and I'm like, what the hell is this? And then I just got suspicious and I looked So yeah, he was pretty, I mean, actually I remember the guy I won't say him, but he's probably retired now anyway, but he was pretty nervous when he found out I was looking 'cause I was the CFO of the company. He's like, Ooh, ooh, I can sweet talk the accounting manager, but I probably can't sweet talk this guy.
0:46:58.6 Erik Zhou: That was my favorite part of the segment. Jack, thank you so much for joining the show today. I think your insights are super valuable. I love what you're doing with the CFO leadership Council. Congratulations on all this success growing from 20 people. You thought it was gonna be 20 people, now it's 2000, right. 2000 finance professional CFOs, etcetera in the group. So big congratulations to all the success. I know you also do a podcast, so can you tell the audience where to find that?
0:47:28.1 Jack McCullough: Sure. It's the Secrets of Rockstar CFOs and I've been really blessed by the quality of speakers that I've had as my guests. I've been doing it, just celebrated our one year anniversary and, you can just find it online at rockstarcfos.com. And of course, it's on all of the major platforms like Apple and Spotify and all of the big ones really.
0:47:49.2 Erik Zhou: That's awesome, Jack. Thank you so much.
0:47:51.6 Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to Controllers Classified presented by Brex. Brex is an AI powered spend platform with global corporate cards, expense management, reimbursements and travel. Visit brex.com and follow Brex on social to see how they can take your accounting game and your company to new heights.